Agreed, what they say Microsoft is "starting to export outside NA" is already the norm here in France since at least this summer.
If the computer is connected to the network in anyway, there is absolutely no way to install with an offline account. Removing all rj45 and not connecting to the wifi until that step is passed allows to use a local account like before.
This almost sounds like they're trying to force a subscription model for Home users at some point. Give away the OS for free for a good while then charge a buck a month to use it. Most will cave to the model to keep using it then they can slowly turn up the fire.
True, and even in Pro you are prompted to “finish setup” (attach a Microsoft account) according to the Thurrott article.
All I can point to is that every other operating system with cloud backup services has gone the same way. It’s hard to backup a local account to the cloud when it’s not synced and once synced, why force users to remember different passwords? Combining accounts does make life easier for most folks...
Also its brilliant business because when cloud goes out fashion(as it does cyclically) they can sell the same software again 'redesigned' for standalone/local usage.
The first an article about this article appeared, they had changed the button name.
I've recently setuped another Windows, Pro edition, and they did revert the button name to "Or make an offline account".
This button is available when they ask you to connect or create a microsoft account in the setup.
Last year I ran through all the old versions of OS/X from 10.1 up to current. It's surprising how many internet services it relied on that were no longer available.
I use Linux, I am pretty ambivalent about Windows, I don't like adware and telemetry in my paid-for software but if they really start doing that honestly that will irritate me enough to start pushing people to Ubuntu when that's possible.
As much as I use Linux for everyday use and dislike windows lately, Linux is still too high-tech for normal people to use. Without terminal command it's hard to manage services, etc. Moreover many drivers and games only available and optimized for windows only.
Careful. You're gunning for someone linuxsplaining how their grandpa has used Arch for years without difficulty, so you must be just wrong about all the normal people you know who find linux too hard.
(I'm exclusively a linux user for now, but really .. linux people can be such a pain).
Microsoft has been giving people reasons to switch to Linux for quite a while. They started with the major overhaul of the Office UI. Then they came out with Windows 10. Ubuntu and Libre Office are just so much easier to work with.
Yeah, I have seen that remark when XP came out, then it was Vista, followed up by how Windows 7 would drive everyone into Linux, then was how Windows 8 would do it, ....
Somehow there is a pattern here, meanwhile Steam Hardware survey still shows GNU/Linux desktops at 1% on average.
I think it would be wonderful if people abandon Windows for alternatives but that won't happen. People are somehow utterly enthralled by that crapware.
This is not true. I have Win 10 Pro on my work laptop. It's very much "paid in full". Some of the things I paid in full for include Bubble Witch 3 Saga, Candy Crush Saga and Candy Crush Friends, and the Start menu came pre-populated with a bunch of ads for similarly useful apps (edit: among other things).
Edit: if someone who's more Windows-savvy than this ol' Unix nerd knows what information I ought to edit out of a screenshot so that I can safely share it, I have the screenshot, too. This "if you pay for Win 10 Pro there are no ads" crap pops up every single damn time so I took a screenshot of my laptop's untouched Win 10 Pro installation.
I also have Win 10 Pro and the maximum I had was, I think, "Install Minecraft" link or something. This is not like Win 10 Home where they tried to keep the ads coming. Which also makes sense, since you are getting a discounted OS.
Going along that route, there is a lot of stuff a default Linux installation bundles, that I don't personally need, so I usually have to do a custom install to have only the stuff I'm comfortable with. Throwing a fit that a product doesn't cater exactly to your particular interests is a bit entitled. You assume that most of Windows consumers don't want those things on their computer.
Who said anything about not catering exactly to my particular interests? You said a legit copy of Windows 10 Pro doesn't show ads. It does. I see them. Ads were some of the first things I saw after I installed it, and I still see them every once in a while. Even you seem to have seen one, even though you literally just said there aren't any.
You are deliberately conflating ads and suggestions. I don't see them and haven't seen them the 3 years I have my Surface Book with Windows Pro. Honestly, I don't remember what I did: either deleted the shortcuts or turned something off in settings. Maybe you should do that?
> You are deliberately conflating ads and suggestions.
Really? What's the difference? When I see nice, red, highlighted text saying "Try out the new Edge browser", should I think of it as "just a suggestion"? How is it different from one saying "Try out the new Coca-Cola"?
Well, as far as I remember, the suggestions in the start menu for me were implemented as .LNK files. Although I might be mistaken there, since I've encountered those years ago and never since. Obviously, in contrast to your experience, where by some mysterious, unfortunate circumstance and surely through no oversight of your own, you seem to be struggling with suggestions and/or ads (who knows which?) in your system on a daily basis, even though you seem to have a Win 10 Pro system.
In my experience, those links weren't intrusive, they weren't detrimental to my experience and I could get rid of them once and for all. And I'm pretty sure .LNK files don't track you if you don't call them.
So to answer your question, I draw the line at opt-out functionality.
> So to answer your question, I draw the line at opt-out functionality.
Great! So any idea how you can opt out? Last time I've seen one of these "suggestions" was one or two weeks ago, when I ended up with a big red "Still using Firefox? The new Edge version is here" entry in the Start menu.
What FUD? And what aversion to "googling stuff"? The Start Menu Personalization is only one of the ad delivery channels, and only one about which I (literally) forgot.
Do you still mean to say that there are no ads on a legitimately-purchased Windows 10 copy, after literally writing that you, yourself, have seen at least one?
Apparently when a GNU/Linux installation shows messages to try out stuff, it is "spreading the good for the community", or has a modified motd, when one gets a couple of links on the start menu, easily removed by right clicking on them, it is "bloody Microsoft".
The whataboutism defense is absolutely failing at this point. If there was material criticism on HN of say Ubuntu or other providers for the same stuff Microsoft gets criticized your words might've been credible. But there isn't and they are not.
Pretending to be fair and objective is not the same thing as being fair and objective.
Whataboutism is a logical fallacy even when the "what about" thing doesn't get enough attention. If Ubuntu got more criticism on HN, would the ads you see on Windows become less intrusive, or more appropriate?
But FWIW, Ubuntu absolutely got, and still gets, plenty of criticism for that, even here on HN.
Just like the "fallacy fallacy" is also a fallacy.
That's not the point I'm debating. Whether I'm OK with product design choices of Microsoft is my own consumer decision. But what really is getting old, is the utterly predictable and abysmal level of discourse on this matter on HN, Reddit or wherever.
My point is, that since the Internet has learned about whataboutism, it is being used to shut down any criticism of bias. In fact, your comment uses the common formula for that "Just because A does B, doesn't mean that C can do B."
Sure, but then your actions don't really correspond to your words. If you take the amount of privacy invasion in Android, for example, HN should be loosing their collective shit on a daily basis. They don't.
This is obviously just people emotionally bashing things they have been taught are outside of their "tribe".
I'm sorry but really none of this makes any sense to me.
How exactly did you reach the conclusion that "my actions don't really correspond to my words" based on how HN collectively treats Android? What actions are you talking about specifically? Using Android? I don't.
An how exactly does this post:
"I'm not sure how that's relevant here. Does my post say anything about what Ubuntu does being excusable in any way?"
follow this formula:
"Just because A does B, doesn't mean that C can do B."
My original reply said nothing about anything other than Windows, and my second post hinted that I think both Canonical and Microsoft are wrong in doing this. If I followed any formula, I'm pretty sure that's "neither A nor C should be doing B", which is as far removed from whataboutism as criticizing bias is removed from astroturfing.
> How exactly did you reach the conclusion that "my actions don't really correspond to my words" based on how HN collectively treats Android? What actions are you talking about specifically? Using Android? I don't.
I wasn't talking about you, the individual. It's a disembodied, collective "you" of HN. It's a rhetorical turn of phrase.
I don't know what to say to the rest. It's pretty obvious to me. If you don't get it, you don't get it.
Also, on astroturfing:
"Astroturfing is the practice of masking the sponsors of a message or organization to make it appear as though it originates from and is supported by grassroots participants."
When Ubuntu does it you will see a ton of complaining, like if it shows you some text and a link that you can disable easily and still people complain, I think people are consistent and you should consider that say Ubuntu is free and Canonical is not profitable where Microsoft is extremely rich and after you paid for the OS they still want to suck more money from you.
I will assure you that I seen it on HN(you can search and find proof you don't believe me), articles about the Amazon shortcut, about the SSH ads, about the Ubuntu/Fedora telemetry etc. Now probably Windows related news were submitted more often but this makes sense .
What version of Windows do people need to buy for it to (right after the installation, with no additional tweaking) have the telemetry keylogger turned off and no ads in start menu and no adware or links to other Microsoft's products there? I've been looking for such a version for a long time.
I've has MS-DOS and/or Windows as one of my boot options on all of my systems for gaming purposes for 30+ years, but the day they mandate a Microsoft account is the day I finally ditch them all together.
By making the point that Microsoft is a follower in this regard, yet the community complains about them as if Apple and Google eco-systems were some kind of angels.
Happened to me two weeks ago while installing windows 10 1909 Home - I just unplugged the ethernet cable and it let me create an offline account... It's still crap and not acceptable though.
Recently ran into this “bug”. Fixed it by unplugging my network cable during installation. I’m normally a Mac user, but I understand why so many people hate Windows 10. Hard to make the argument this benefits users.
Nope, windows phone took the Android approach.
Anyways, android is usable without signing into a google account. You can use the Amazon app store (which has most of popular apps), or fdroid or download apk files yourself like windows of old.
Windows is a paid product, Android is not. Apart from including ridiculous ads and telemetry some of which can't be disabled, Windows seems to be taking user hosting steps every day.
I'd say it heavily depends as well, a year ago my father had one of those phones featuring Android One and it wouldn't let you use it unless you connected to wi-fi and logged in to your account. It's bizarre that functionality is blocking you for basic usage of making a call, etc.
I guess the manufacturer could have opted for that type of lock-in as well with their images, but seeing Android One is a near-stock as-is OS I don't know if by default Android forces you to log in and phone manufacturers remove that type of enforcement.
Just out of curiosity, which android one phone was this. I have used two android one phones, the Xiaomi A1 and the Motorola One Power, and both of them work fine without a google account.
Without a google account I can setup my Xiaomi A3 just fine.
I even disabled google play services and play store all together. Root with magisk method.
OutOfTopic: At work, I develop an app using Angular+Cordova webview, but it couldn't work on my Mi A3, always crashing like another local banking app I have (which I have uninstalled anyway). The Play store, before disabling, also black screen at google signing in page, unless I have already signed in before rooting with Magisk. Lol I wonder why it is so buggy. Should go with TWRP SuperSU root, but whatever, the A/B partition method uses up a lot of storage as well (I think)
I am thinking next time buying a Lineage OS compatible android phone to use. Android 10 is not reaching all the MI A1, A2, A3 phones at all, with Android 11 coming up already.
I can confirm, Motorola One & later Motorola One Action, both can be set up in seconds without an account, there's a prominent Skip button everywhere. Some phones can't, i.e. MIUI-based Xiaomi phones require a Google and Mi account on the first boot, to call home owner info. Later resets will not require it, but they always require a mobile data connection (not WiFi!) to verify validity of the device (as dystopian as that sounds).
MIUI based devices don't come with Android one though, but yes, MIUI is horrible and I will never buy a device even if it has great hardware with MiUI.
I think it was one of those cheap Alcatel phones with Android One. I don't remember well myself but I'm pretty sure it was Alcatel.
I ended up helping him getting a LG G6 and for his usage it's more than enough power for him. (plus cheap in 2019 when I bought it) All problems solved. Not sure what went wrong with his phone but I couldn't even do anything with the recovery mode and resetting to factory.
Alcatel doesn't have Android One, at least not internationally. They have Android Go, which is the less-resource-intensive version. However, Alcatel is absolutely awful with privacy and some of the software bundled is absolute scam-ware. Even older devices got updates via Play store for system apps like Calculator, File manager, etc., which introduced ads, and a (!!!) floating blue octopus on (every) screen which shows suggestions and full screen autoplaying ads with sound.
Then I have no idea what it was (phone brand), sorry. I just know with what I tried to troubleshoot.
I'm not a fan of Alcatel.... or Blu. But translating what you just told me to not just my parents but all older folks is.... not an easy task. It's met with apathy.
The fact that you have to actively and deliberately fork over cash for Windows, but not for Android, where it's hidden -- that really seems to trip people up.
And it's not hidden in windows, where you have candy crush pre-installed and ads in the start menu. So in windows, you fork over cash, give your data, and then have to seem some ads.
Candy crush is not pre-installed, it is just a link to the store, easily removable with right mouse click.
Gee, I never saw people complain this way with Solitaire, Mineswepper, GNOME Games Suit, or the dump of floppies they would get on their Atari/Amiga/PC bundles.
> Gee, I never saw people complain this way with Solitaire, Mineswepper, GNOME Games Suit, or the dump of floppies they would get on their Atari/Amiga/PC bundles.
Strange. Especially as those didn't actively run analytics when you run them. Perhaps those two situations aren't completely comparable.
The difference is that in one case the developer is adding something purely because they think it might benefit the user, and in the other case the developer is being paid by a third party to do something to the user that they wouldn't otherwise have done.
I guess it isn't really any different from OEM bundling, other than that you now have two links in the supply chain (both Microsoft and the OEM) being paid by third parties for adulterating the product.
(I didn't say anything about tracking, but there's plenty of that in Windows already. There are settings, enabled by default, to let Microsoft track every application you launch and every website you visit.)
On cheaper Android devices that are sold at-cost or below cost, you usually can't. They need to make money on your data with those "value-add" apps, to remain profitable, so they mark ALL apps as "system required", to prevent disabling (i.e. try disabling SystemUI through the UI, it won't let you, the button will be greyed out).
If you don't use the play store or apps that rely on play services. It should work fine.
My issue with MS's forced use of online account is that there's zero merit for doing so.
I don't use the store or any store app. I don't use OneDrive, nor need to sync settings, word, app states...
It doesn't make my device more secure. Instead created more attack surface for my devices. All devices connected to one account can are owned once someone takes over my email.
But I do like using PIN instead of passwords. There's no valid technical reason why offline accounts can't use PIN but it is what it is. So, so I end up signing in.
For Windows phone, it made sense to save my phone contacts online, and to use find my phone.
Once Cortana got into the picture though they started messing up with stuff that worked fine to force Cortana on me.
So stuff like quiet mode no longer worked without Cortana. And no longer worked offline.
If there are clear Advantages to users more people will use Microsoft account.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22382710
(132 points/129 comments)