With these kinds of `hooray linux´ articles, I always wonder whether they included the cost of reduced productivity they included when moving everybody from MS Office to LibreOffice and stuff like that. The difference in quality, stability and features is pretty big. I've worked with LibreOffice only for about 8 months, and I can tell you, it's not just a matter of "getting used to". There's simply a whole bunch of bugs (layout screwing up in Writer, Ctrl+Z not perfectly going back to the previous state, etc) and limitations. The time wasted fighting these tools costs a lot as well.
Take 12000 civil servants losing one hour a week on fighting the tools, and you get to 11.7 million pretty fast.
You seem to neglect the fact Office users routinely experience problems with their own documents and programs. Who never had a Word document that, after some heavy editing, refused to load? I have, many times, since the first version of Word for Windows. I've abandoned Office between 2002 and 2008 and, to my surprise, I still had those problems with Word, Project and Outlook (when I had to clean PST files more than once).
At least with Outlook I solved the problem backing up via IMAP to my own server, who kept the mailbox in a very easy to manage maildir folder. The usual Office workaround - opening with OpenOffice and saving back to Office format - never worked for me after 2008 and backups had to be used.
When speaking from your experience its easy to say 'many' users have had problems, just like how I can say I've never had a problem with a word document therefore 'many' users have never had a problem with a word document. :) Not sure what kind of editing you do. haha
In 2008 I was creating a lot of PowerPoint presentations with embedded Excel spreed sheets, and either PowerPoint or Excel crashed on average about every 2 hours. Everyone else in the office had the same problem so it was a huge productivity black hole.
It's not that you could not get it to work, just there was a vary small 'happy path' and doing just about anything else caused something to crash. EX: Open Excel, if Excel is not opened PowerPoint will crash when you try and edit one of these slides.
PS: I suggested just using images and attaching the originals, but the client wanted to be able to resize things / change the graphs titles etc.
Hmm, i don't use many images for Microsoft Word. It's unfortunate that you had problems with it. Word crashing for me is very very rare, but most of what I do is typing and little bits of graphic art, but I think Office has gotten better lately. Just contact that Splines guy with your issues if they still persist.
Most are documents with inserted pictures, pieces of spreadsheets, Visio and Project charts. Insertion and deletion of the non-text elements appeared to significantly increase the chances of creating unreadable documents. Workarounds includes saving under different formats and removing history. I am counting my own problems as well as my closest coworkers.
As with Outlook's PSTs, there were no apparent cause for the corruption - it just happened.
I no longer use Word (back to Linux and LO for work), but I'll keep an eye on the Windows and Mac coworkers and reach you if I hear anyone experiencing these kinds of problems. We also have a consultancy working on a large project with lots of documentation and specs being generated as Word documents with Excel, Project and Visio elements embedded. I'll get in touch with them as I suspect they are the most likely to be hit by problems like the ones I had.
As for the other projects and teams, we have significantly reduced the use of Project as we moved our tracking to Jira and use Confluence to keep almost all project artifacts. Despite the fact we still use Exchange for e-mail, I dropped desktop software and moved completely to OWA, with Evolution doing backups over IMAP into a local maildir rsynced to a durable datastore.
I agree. The FOSS office tools are simply not in the same class as Microsoft Office. Anyone who has worked extensively with Excel will acknowledge there really is no true competitor out there.
Frankly, I would go so far as to say that a Linux desktop OS is really only appropriate for enthusiasts or those with minimal needs (e.g. email). For just about anyone else, there is simply too much potential hassle involved in getting the basics to work (external displays, anyone?).
Frankly, I would say just the opposite. If your needs are minimal, go with windows. If you need more, linux is a good choice. You will never get a decent terminal in windows or good support for some programming languages (such as python).
You are right with Excel although. However, much of the "power" of Excel is really just needed because people are overusing it. Stop making "databases" out of Excel sheets and implement good data analytics system on the server and you'll see that libreoffice is more than enough.
Sorry, but LibreOffice (on OSX at least) has been horrendous for me. When scrolling, cells get repainted in adjacent cells, borders don't show up... There are so many display-related bugs that the entire program was rendered completely useless for me. It has nothing to do with making "databases" out of spreadsheets (I was only using 30 rows!), and everything to do with crappy, buggy interface code.
I did state that Linux was appropriate for enthusiasts as well as those with minimal needs.
The reason I feel Linux to be appropriate for novices with bare-minimal needs, is that when operating within very narrow constraints the most popular Linux distros are both efficient and safe. For basic functionality, the price can't be beat.
However, hassles really do begin to manifest themselves once users begin to really engage their PC in any number of ways. The vast majority of PC users fall into this category. In other words, they have non-minimal needs but are neither enthusiasts nor developers or otherwise employed in IT full time.
WiFi, external displays, software limitations (e.g. video editing) are only a small number of issues that can and will manifest themselves. For the vast majority of PC users, this constitutes an unacceptable hassle.
Enthusiasts, on the other hand, know what they need and how to fix the above if necessary. I personally think OSX is a superior choice. I value productivity, and don't consider (for instance) mucking around in xorgs to be a good use of my time. However, I respect and understand those who choose *Nix over OSX.
edit : Can one of those who felt this was worthy of downvotes explain what they felt was factually inaccurate?
I didn't downvote but I generally dislike these types of comments:
> The vast majority of PC users fall into this category.
This comes up all the time on HN. "The vast majority of users think X", "the vast majority of users live in Outlook", "the vast majority of users only need an iPad", etc. etc. The reality is that you have no idea what the vast "majority of users" want or need, you are projecting your own biases and micro-observations onto the world.
Actually I think we need to get over the idea that there is some 80+% of users who all need/want the exact same thing. Seems to me that there are probably a lot more categories out there than the black/white you're either a total novice or a power user world that is constantly constructed here.
FYI, I upvoted even though I disagree with much of what you've put.
A number of these issues that you mention are only present with a lack of planning. If you go out and buy a computer with the intention of running Linux on it, you plan and you pick a computer with good compatibility. With each release of popular distros such as Ubuntu, compatibility improves massively. My Dad's laptop used to have issues with WiFi a few years back, now it connects fine (faster than Windows too) in Ubuntu 10.10.
External displays? I've never had an issue with this and I'm actually typing this on a dual-monitor Linux setup. If you have an Nvidia graphics card then this should be fine. Again though, if you plan this isn't an issue.
Software limitations, granted. Just like for OS X, there are professional wine layers which offer Windows software on Linux. But sure, that's not perfect. There is quite a bit of good quality software (plus, obviously, web applications work fine) and especially for development work. But this is definitely an area that needs improving.
Personally I'm waiting on Canonical to release their own computer (or partner up with a hardware provider) for then there will be no issues with hardware compatibility or many of the problems you mention, for that is the reason they exist: attempting to run Linux on a device that was not designed specifically for it.
I'd add that when you install a Linux distro (at least a good one like Ubuntu, OpenSuse, CentOS), you end up with a working environement with all your hardware recognized at once (except ATI issues). You just can't do the same with Windows. You have to download every part's driver and install them one by one before you got something working. Linux distros have come a long way and now they are simply amazingly easy to setup.
attempting to run Linux on a device that was not designed specifically for it.
Couldn't have put it better. Those who complain about how linux doesn't "just work" often overlook this point.
Personally though, I don't think Canonical coming up with their own computer isn't really going to help; I wish that there were a hardware vendor that designed really beautiful computers so that I could run linux on it (Currently, the best design is by Apple)
I think you'r missing out on another large group of users: Those in a large organization that need a defined set of features, often provided by a custom application under control of the given organization. Those users have well-defined requirements and do have an IT department backing them. Pretty much all of the administration falls into that category: They're not supposed to go wandering off changing config settings or downloading and installing software. They have a handfull of programs that they need, nowadays often server-based, and if those programs can be made to run on linux, they couldn't care less about the underlying OS.
You got downvoted because you included some traditional anti-Linux troll subjects with nothing to support those points.
> However, hassles really do begin to manifest themselves once users begin to really engage their PC in any number of ways. The vast majority of PC users fall into this category. In other words, they have non-minimal needs but are neither enthusiasts nor developers or otherwise employed in IT full time.
The vast majority of PC users do not fall into your category. They will be people who need to read email, do a little bit of simple web-browsing, create and open simple office documents (the vast majority of which would be fine with Libre-Office) and maybe run some awful accounts / stock / ordering software.
> WiFi, external displays, software limitations (e.g. video editing) are only a small number of issues that can and will manifest themselves. For the vast majority of PC users, this constitutes an unacceptable hassle.
WIFI is fixed in Linux and has been for a while, you don't want to run wifi in a business, and if you are using it anyway you'd have it set up by IT.
I'm not sure what you mean by external displays. If you mean dual monitors than very few people need two monitors, and those that do would have them set up by IT, and they'd work with whatever software being used. If you mean projectors then I have no idea what the Linux situation is. I accept it might be a problem, but that's a problem faced by a very small number of people.
A tiny number of people need to edit video. In the context of a local authority we can say that almost no one will be editing video.
OS X, in the context of local governments trying to save money, is - and I say this as politely as I can - a stupid suggestion. The hardware is much more expensive, is a lot more desirable to thieves, it has similar (or worse) dual monitor problems as you suggest above, it has similar (or worse) lack of software as you suggest above.
>> You got downvoted because you included some traditional anti-Linux troll subjects with nothing to support those points.
I only mentioned the items I have personally had issues with. If these are in fact "troll subjects", there's probably a good reason for it.
>> OS X, in the context of local governments trying to save money, is - and I say this as politely as I can - a stupid suggestion. The hardware is much more expensive, is a lot more desirable to thieves, it has similar (or worse) dual monitor problems as you suggest above, it has similar (or worse) lack of software as you suggest above.
Maybe you're upset because you are purposely mis-reading what I wrote. My choice of OSX over Linux specifically referred to enthusiasts, and had absolutely nothing to do with the Munich local government.
> Stop making "databases" out of Excel sheets and implement good data analytics system on the server
Note this is largely procedural. Employee can play with a spreadsheet 'for free', but a database requires finding budget for Business Analyst, DBA, Java Programmer, etc.
In many cases, Excel or Access functions as the prototyping tool for the ultimate real application.
SharePoint is what happens when you force a paradigm (the idea of files) to the limit of good sense. Why do we need Excel sheets lying around in SharePoint? Why not just a decent web interface connected with the databases (external and internal)?
I just today discussed with my boss a proposal from some finance guys of a "dashboard" in power point that will take half day to be manually updated every month. Come on... nobody sees this is plain wrong?
SharePoint is a CMS mixed with Document Management Systems with a sprinkle of Workflows plus a platform for small (but limited features) web-apps.
Some companies chose SharePoint because of the features and the idea of avoiding "NIH" or writing web-apps from scratch.
I think this is where the "hackers" (or geeks, whatever, hackers aren't hackers anymore these days) mindset don't jelled well with internal IT systems: we all want to develop something from scratch the way we want it, the way we know, the way we hope it will be.
Once your users are asking features of Excel to be implemented in your web-apps that use Ext-JS GRID as front-end you'll know what you're signing for...(and at that point pulling a 37signals makes you look...let's just say less useful...)
What features of excel? I work with Excel everyday (I'm a finance, not a hacker) and I can't really see what features, besides filters and pivots, you may want to implement in an app. The best piece of software I worked with is "Hyperion", which great just because limits the "Excel power" so that nobody feels entitled to creativity every time there is report to do.
Didn't know of the web apps in SP, would like to see some examples although, don't trust it just yet...
Sharepoint also does Workflow, good for companies that have red-tapes.
Not everybody have red-tapes but for some that do have them, Sharepoint is there to red-taped-taped you :D
Oh and excel in the browser: filters, pivots, formula, sorting, etc.
Also, Excel for data entry! (Excel to Sharepoint List).
Don't forget InfoPath forms to fill out expenses!
SharePoint also solves the problem (depending on how you look at it) with business people not wanting to use Subversion or version control system. It has "Check in" and "Check out" features.
At the end of the day, you can't replicate Sharepoint features with scrappy web-apps. I know it's enticing, but it's a very very super hard sell because the numbers don't add up.
I hear you and nice web app too, but basically you are telling me that Excel and SP are more cost effective than a good app made for the specifics of your needs.
I don't know, in finance at my company with put huge ammounts of man hours in crafting, correcting, dealing, with tons of excel files. There are analysts that spend most of the time putting data in Excel sheets from the data warehouse system and shipping in outlook or uploading on SP. Is this cost effective? I doubt it. It is also an horrible way of working, you have no programmatic/easy way of comparing data: start trying to understand where a certain variation from the forecast, from a certain account, came from out of 30+ entities. It just drives people mad.
I think that some way in the middle is the solution...
Personally I find that techies are the hardest to rip away from Office, as they can see all the little bugs, etc. Non-technical people seem to - somehow - overlook these.
I've introduced a number of people now to OpenOffice and they've much preferred it as it has given them back a somewhat familiar interface, after the widely-despised change to ribbon (a UI I actually prefer but it was a shock to many).
I agree that LibreOffice is not an equal to MS Office, but I wonder how many civil servants are doing a lot of original work in an office suite. Seems to me that most of what they would be doing is filling out forms and using other standard templates. Given a suite of working, debugged templates (which seems to be what the "WollMux" extension supplies) I'd be surprised if there'd be a lot of need to go outside that.
The layout issue is really an intrinsic problem with almost any word processor. Primarily because such programs are not made for page layout work. I've had just as many issues with transferring word files between various platforms ( win <-> mac). If you want your layout to be accurate, only transfer files in PDF with the fonts embedded or just create them in indesign or some other application that is actually designed for layout work.
Most civil servants use Excel more than Word, and I think that scalc is way easier to use than Excel, precisely because it doesn't try to be helpful. Excel has so many stupid rules about auto-correct and special paste that I just can't get what I need to done.
Word is still better than swriter, but not by a margin that I care about, and the fact that I have one-click PDF generation by default is a pretty killer feature, in my eyes.
This 'getting used to' phase also applies to the Microsoft ribbon[1]. And all the differences from NT-XP-Vista-7.
Moreover, it's more likely that the GUI can be forced to be stable on Linux, while the underlying system receives security updates, because of the separation of components.
[1] Right now, the keystrokes I know for Microsoft Excel still work, but they bear no relationship to the UI at all.
Take 12000 civil servants losing one hour a week on fighting the tools, and you get to 11.7 million pretty fast.