>On the other hand, this doesn't mirror my experience in the mailing lists, incl. debian-devel, which is one of the heaviest mailing lists I have ever participated,
You may be filtering them, because I have seen a ton of flamewars on the debian mailing lists. Almost as many to rival lkml.
>The link I shared was 'The official kernel mailing list", and the person who wrote the mail is a Kernel maintainer.
I have read a countless number of flamewars from various maintainers on lkml including each of the ones you're sharing, I don't feel I need to read them again, sorry.
>Are you trying to say that you know (or one of) these people, and they don't want to remember these things, because they feel bad about these events?
No, I don't know any of these people personally. I am saying I would rather not remember these things because they are not an effective use of my time. It was also not an effective use of my time to pay attention to this when it happened originally, it is none of my business whether some other developers have some personal issues between each other.
>The criticisms I shared as a comment are still valid. Do you want me to carry them to mailing lists and start another flame war?
No. I would ask that you rephrase your comments to be less accusatory, and do your part to not start another flame war or revive an old one. Perhaps the reason you are not getting positive responses may be because your tone is causing other people to become defensive. I understand english is not your first language. Just make a small list of the problems you're having, do not make it about "refuting" something anyone else has said and do not make generalizations about other people. A simple way to do it is like this: "I can't do A, it's hard for me to do B, it crashes when I do C" and so on. Only mention issues that you personally can attest to first-hand, avoid discussing rumors and do not say things like "I heard A, I read B, someone told me C". That is not the way to problem solve. Does that sound good?
>Also, please read the guidelines[0] of this site about commenting, language, tone and general behavior.
I have read them, I would prefer that you please do not link to outside messages featuring these flamewars from other forums which have much more relaxed requirements about tone, language and behavior. This a technical way to evade the guidelines even though it would be inappropriate to post those type of comments on HN. Many of the insulting, derogatory or passive-aggressive comments from lkml maintainers (including from Mr. Torvalds himself) would get you ban here but for some reason people think it's appropriate to keep re-posting links to them. I really don't think it is.
Note: I may snip your words for brevity. This is not to distort what you're saying, but to keep this wall of text readable
> You may be filtering them,...
Nope.
> because I have seen a ton of flamewars on the debian mailing lists. Almost as many to rival lkml.
Yes, but at least even there there's a certain rigor and discussion happening. I have got my fair share of heat and fire too. Moreover, I have been pretty smacked here too, so when done with rigor, a flame war is a dense information exchange. I don't support flame wars either, but not all flame wars are created equal.
> ...I don't feel I need to read them again, sorry.
You don't need to be sorry about your choices. I suggest something, but do not insist. That's your choice. No hard feelings about that.
> ... I am saying I would rather not remember these things because they are not an effective use of my time.
Then just, don't? I don't remember all these details either. I just remember that I have written some long comments about systemd and just revisit them to remember. I use them as my primary docs. Life is too short to live in anger constantly. It's harmful, too.
Also, remembering these primary docs allows me to do long-term checks. Sometimes I look my old comments and laugh to my stupid self, a lot.
> No. I would ask that you rephrase your comments to be less accusatory, and do your part to not start another flame war or revive an old one.
Errm, I think our comment histories are on the open. I don't think I'm accusatory or like to start flame wars. I just document my experience in these comments. My harder toned remarks are generally responses to accusatory comments made about me (so,see parents to my comments).
I think the top comment of this chain (my comment) openly admits that I read my parent's comments wrong and wrote something rude and bad, explicitly accepted the mistake, and apologized.
Currently, I have no desire to write something to any official systemd communication channel, even a proper bug report (problem, description, steps to reproduce, expected behavior), because every time something about systemd comes up, somebody blames somebody on being accusatory. I strive to disengage people from the code they have written, but the two just entangle sometimes (as in systemd), and I find myself sharing my observations about a person's behavior. As you can see in my comment history, while I don't trust Lennart (because I have no reason), I still keep a neutral stance about him, and hope to chat with him some day, and change my opinions about him.
So, maybe we should take the time, step away from the computer and reflect sometimes. Again, I do that a lot, and find my mistakes.
> ... This a technical way to evade the guidelines even though it would be inappropriate to post those type of comments on HN.
Does giving references to occurred events in case of somebody wants to follow trail is bad practice? I'd rather get a warning because I support my claims with resources I find, or being countered with other resources invalidating my claims. Similarly, I would be glad if somebody can provide me a nice technical discourse about systemd, which invalidates my claims about people's behavior which affect the project. I would rather be wrong about people being rude and not accommodating discussions instead of being able to say "I said so!".
Maybe systemd is up to another evaluation after a year, you may be right. However as improved as is, the way it developed, and the things have happened in the past are ingrained on every systemd installation in the world. We can't change that. Also' please don't have prejudice about people, it may color your opinion. It does mine, and I feel very bad afterwards about that.
Lastly, this comment chain is not visible under my original comment, but it's not my making.
I may not answer further comments in this chain,
I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors,
>when done with rigor, a flame war is a dense information exchange.
I can't agree, I have never felt that comments like "person A is an idiot" have any information in them. I have been on the receiving end of plenty of those comments, I never learned anything from them, they just serve to make the other person feel bad or angry. Actually, those comments are against the guidelines here because they have no information.
>Errm, I think our comment histories are on the open. I don't think I'm accusatory or like to start flame wars.
I am not going to look through your comment history. It's just a thought: perhaps, if you aren't getting positive interactions, you may be accidentally being rude. I can say that I have been accidentally rude in the past. If that happens, just apologize. It may not have happened. It may never happen. I don't know, it's just something to think about.
>while I don't trust Lennart
I don't understand this. You do not have to "trust" anyone to make a bug report, you just write it. Someone will either read it and act on it, or not. Also, there are multiple other systemd developers working on bugs.
>Does giving references to occurred events in case of somebody wants to follow trail is bad practice?
It really depends. If you are trying to solve current issues, and those events are not strictly related to the issue at hand (like, it is not exactly the same bug or something related) then it probably is just noise.
>I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors, Have a nice one, Thank you.
You may be filtering them, because I have seen a ton of flamewars on the debian mailing lists. Almost as many to rival lkml.
>The link I shared was 'The official kernel mailing list", and the person who wrote the mail is a Kernel maintainer.
I have read a countless number of flamewars from various maintainers on lkml including each of the ones you're sharing, I don't feel I need to read them again, sorry.
>Are you trying to say that you know (or one of) these people, and they don't want to remember these things, because they feel bad about these events?
No, I don't know any of these people personally. I am saying I would rather not remember these things because they are not an effective use of my time. It was also not an effective use of my time to pay attention to this when it happened originally, it is none of my business whether some other developers have some personal issues between each other.
>The criticisms I shared as a comment are still valid. Do you want me to carry them to mailing lists and start another flame war?
No. I would ask that you rephrase your comments to be less accusatory, and do your part to not start another flame war or revive an old one. Perhaps the reason you are not getting positive responses may be because your tone is causing other people to become defensive. I understand english is not your first language. Just make a small list of the problems you're having, do not make it about "refuting" something anyone else has said and do not make generalizations about other people. A simple way to do it is like this: "I can't do A, it's hard for me to do B, it crashes when I do C" and so on. Only mention issues that you personally can attest to first-hand, avoid discussing rumors and do not say things like "I heard A, I read B, someone told me C". That is not the way to problem solve. Does that sound good?
>Also, please read the guidelines[0] of this site about commenting, language, tone and general behavior.
I have read them, I would prefer that you please do not link to outside messages featuring these flamewars from other forums which have much more relaxed requirements about tone, language and behavior. This a technical way to evade the guidelines even though it would be inappropriate to post those type of comments on HN. Many of the insulting, derogatory or passive-aggressive comments from lkml maintainers (including from Mr. Torvalds himself) would get you ban here but for some reason people think it's appropriate to keep re-posting links to them. I really don't think it is.