It’s spam. This is HN spam. “Framework Alternative”, but:
- No repair schematics.
- No open source anything. (Framework open sourced their embedded controller)
- No ecosystem. No 3D printing models or CNC models for making your own parts.
- No purchase price (only “B2B sales” and some godforsaken subscription service).
This reminds me of the tons of companies which are now marketing their products as “open source” because they use bits and pieces of open source software in the product. But then none of the actual product has any source available to the public.
Everything about this is misleading. The advertised laptop doesn’t even seem to exist. It’s not even possible to buy this in the website.
For people who want cool “open” hardware, please support projects at https://www.crowdsupply.com/ particularly any which either offer or pinky-promise to release ALL of the following:
I admit the clickbait part if you look at it from an open source/open hardware perspective, however, with the title I wanted to rather follow up on the lacking trackpoint keyboard for a repairable modular laptop. And you are also right on the b2b ( see also my own comment below). However, not much of an framework ecosystem has actually materialized yet. To me it is an alternative as it is also modular and repairable to some degree. Your post is also quite typical HN in its negativity:The product does exist and you can buy it via resellers. Maybe a better title would be ThinkPad alternative. The comparison to framework wasn't actually my idea but I read review about it in one of the biggest European computer tech magazies [1]. It also has been featured with a reference to framework on Tom's HW [2]
And this is why I always check the comments first before clicking on HN links! Thanks for saving my time / helping me not give irrelevant pages traffic.
I don't think it is given the user's history. But he didn't think about it too much.
I see he's also waiting for a trackpoint in the framework but i don't think we'll get it, some framework people said it wasn't feasible and there's a long road ahead before we get 3rd party stuff.
I can't get a framework either, as I live in the EU.
as long as laptop motherboards have to conform to custom shapes and thermal exhaust designs in order to be small and light there will always be a certain proprietary nature to them.
it's not like there's a standard for laptop motherboards similar to the 12"x9.6" ATX motherboard with ATX rear-IO-panel design we've been using for common midtower desktop PCs for the past 20 years.
it would be nice if somebody did standardize such a thing for a modular swappable laptop motherboard with all the i/o ports along the left side, the heatpipe and exhaust along the right side, or vice versa.
even something like a framework laptop has a totally bespoke custom size/shape/design to its cpu+gpu heatpipe and heatsink/blower fan assembly.
I mean, it’s not like AT(X) started out as a standard either. It evolved out of a proprietary but reliable design.
Realistically that’s how a laptop standard will have evolve into being, if a consortium got together to try to make one out of thin air it would almost certainly be a disaster.
So at this point, imo, framework’s motherboard is the eigenstandard: either it will continue to exist long enough to attract efforts to build alternative hardware around (as the pi sort of has for tiny form factor sbcs), or it will fizzle out and we’ll be back to square one.
But may as well be optimistic and assume it’s the beginning of “atx for laptops” the same way the ibm pc/at was until proven otherwise. Challenges to that place need to provide more, not less, compelling reasons to believe in them imo.
They don't have to adhere to a strict formfactor like atx/matx (which weren't standard for quite some time, but regardless). The ability to change out parts like memory/disk/wifi, expand the I/O, and replace the mobo entirely (or even repair single failed components, or take to a shop that can) is the biggest thing for me as a user.
No but big ass luggable computers have used desktop PC parts back in the day, Google "Dolch lunchbox computer". If you wanted the absolute most cpu power in something like a portable workstation that would be transported from job site to job site you could probably do something with an expensive 170x170mm mini itx format board and a 140W tdp cpu.
Even a microatx is just way too awkward a shape for a laptop really. You don’t want a square motherboard in a laptop, you want a (rough) rectangle so there’s room for a large battery cell.
I mean, this would be cool if you could buy it, but in it's current scheme it's a perpetual rental which only makes it attract to a certain kind of business.
On a semi-unrelated note, how long can we sustain per month, per user costs? Maybe I'm naive, but the per month buck has to stop somewhere.
Love how they take apart a nuc reassemble it in a Chinese clone laptop and then stamp a stupid logo everywhere. You brand what YOU make. They probably didn’t even design the logo
I wonder why framework seems so much more popular. This product is a much better fit for me. I even prefer the fixed ports to frameworks modules. It looks cleaner and has all of the ports I'd need.
If Framework works out as intended, my chassis can outlive the ports I chose (2x USBC, HDMI, USB3A) when I ordered it.
(And that's not even that far-fetched, perhaps most obviously/soonest USBC being prevalent enough to obsolete type-A and HDMI for me.)
But that's quite a minor point, critics always seem to pick on the port modules, but the main thing to me is the design for repair/upgrade. Even though I expected that, it was honestly a 'wow' to receive it and fit my components - the attention detail, like captive screws and magnets, that makes it so easy to work on.
Something else nice about the modules is that in a long lived device, the physical port can be damaged by heavy use. Instead of a motherboard replacement, you just get a new module.
Appears EU centric, shipping? No pricing given, no US keyboard layout available. Haven't checked but hear many programmers prefer US keyboard layout (+Intl) due to all the braces being in reach. That's probably enough hurdles.
Available keyboards are a weird choice indeed (for Germans actually a Swiss keyboard is a decent choice for hybrid office and programming) and says a lot about their market ( they are Swiss btw) . You can prices via resellers [1].
I really like it too. The problem seems to be actually to get it. It is a B2B product and they very much seem to be about extra services. However, there seem to be resellers that have webshops. The trackpoint alone makes me want to have one as a ThinkPad alternative...
Well, here in the UK I can actually buy a Framework laptop... I can't buy this laptop directly from the manufacturer - and I can't find anywhere else I can buy it! I can't even find pricing.
This does look like a great product - just not a very available one!
The framework is the first laptop I've been excited to own in a LONG time. Reasons:
1. Compatibility: The framework will charge at any voltage. I've plugged it in to an ancient pre-usb-type-c power bank and charged it at 5V 1A. The official framework laptop charger has worked with *everything* I've plugged it in to, whereas my old Apple 61W would not charge sony ps5 controllers nor would it charge my pixelbook if I let it die fully[1]. Everything works flawlessly under Linux and most things work under FreeBSD[2]. The PrimeBook could reach a similar level of compatibility, but that remains to be seen.
2. Flexibility: Because I planned to use FreeBSD I put a supported atheros wifi card in there so my wifi works great. The video for the primebook says the wifi is included in their compute bricks so I don't think the user is going to be able to pick any card they want from any retailer and pop it in.
3. Power: I have 64GiB of ram inside my framework. While the PrimeBook claims to let you upgrade your hardware, you're still at their mercy for what they decide to put into their compute bricks so I think you'll be stuck at 16GiB for now.
4. Sacrificial layer: I no longer have to worry about tripped over power cords or accidentally bumping a dongle coming out of my laptop because if I break the ports on my laptop I can just get another $9 card to replace them. Any issue with my touchpad or keyboard is also an easy fix and I've got a spare screen for my laptop sitting in my closet.
5. 4x USB4 ports: I am not forced into having legacy ports on my laptop. I can plug in any of my devices in any of my ports on either side of my laptop. I can charge from any side of my laptop. The PrimeBook only has 1 type-c port which from what I can tell from the photos is the only way to charge the laptop so when I'm away from my dock I would have to unplug my laptop from charging in order to plug in my yubikey or any of my other devices.
6. Privacy: I have hardware kill switches for my webcam and microphone[3]. There doesn't seem to be any mention of any such switches for the primebook.
7. Battery charge limiter: lithium ion batteries degrade the fastest at fully charged or fully depleted. The framework laptop lets me restrict the battery to any level I see fit[4] so it can sit plugged-in at a dock all day without harming the battery. I don't see any mention of this feature on primebook's website.
8. Repairability: Check out all the parts available on the framework store. I see nothing like this on primebook's website: https://frame.work/marketplace
That being said, the primebook does have some nice aspects:
A. The ethernet port is flush with the device whereas the framework ethernet module sticks out. I seldom need ethernet on-the-go so I don't need ethernet on my laptop itself so this has no impact for me.
B. The replaceable card for all the hardware will be less scary for the general population, but because of that you are at their mercy for everything except the SSD whereas the framework can use off-the-shelf ram, wifi, and SSD.
[1] once my pixelbook had any power in it, the apple charger would work. It just wouldn't work from a fully dead state.
[2] my display does not work through my thunderbolt 4 dock under FreeBSD yet.
[3] which, in yet-another way the framework team thought of everything: they made the switches operate by blocking light instead of metal contacts which I can only assume is for increased longevity or for handling vibration better.
Given that Framework sells replacement keyboards I have to wonder if you could mod in a Trackpoint sensor and nub somehow. Are there orderable parts for the nub?
- No repair schematics.
- No open source anything. (Framework open sourced their embedded controller)
- No ecosystem. No 3D printing models or CNC models for making your own parts.
- No purchase price (only “B2B sales” and some godforsaken subscription service).
This reminds me of the tons of companies which are now marketing their products as “open source” because they use bits and pieces of open source software in the product. But then none of the actual product has any source available to the public.
Everything about this is misleading. The advertised laptop doesn’t even seem to exist. It’s not even possible to buy this in the website.
For people who want cool “open” hardware, please support projects at https://www.crowdsupply.com/ particularly any which either offer or pinky-promise to release ALL of the following:
- Software source code
- Electrical schematics
- PCB layout files