- lay, relax, comfort^
  - do not move further
  - do not put your arms into a position where your breath could disturb them
  - focus on what you feel in your body
  - scan slowly from head to neck to arms to belly to legs
  - name every minor feeling, pain, pressure, etc in your mind
  - for(;;) the above three steps, fading your inner voice to just a conception of thought
  - breathe in normal, breath out slowly
  - continue to scan your body
  - count integers on each breath if you slip into thinking
  - do not f…ing move ever

At the first time using this technique I spent a couple of hours semi-dreaming and turning in the bed, but in a couple of days, after waking up I could only remember the first two steps. Falling asleep in just 5-10 minutes seemed completely unreal to me, but that’s what I’m doing every day now. As a bonus, I recalled the thing my doctor wanted me to recall right at the first at-home experiment.

The theory behind that is that if your insomnia is related to an unstoppable thinking process (a form of an anxiety psychosis, I guess), then there is a hack: you cannot think when you’re focusing on what you feel in your body. You either scan yourself or think (even subconsciously), like a single core multitasking. By burning 100% cpu on sensations, you basically extinguish the fires in your mind, deoxygenating them.

Hope this helps at least some of you, guys! (And sorry if you already tried)

But it's also really frustrating when you have an itch or if your in an awkward position where breathing is more difficult.

From this, I very much doubt you had an experience of waking up in a sleep paralysis of a meaningful degree. I'm talking about when you realize that you're only awake because you can control your thoughts and receive sensorial inputs (feeling, hearing, etc.) but don't have any movement control whatsoever, not over your breath, not even over your eyelids to open and look around. That in itself, as bad as it sounds, may not be a problem if the awakened mind won't feel the need for more oxygen, yet the breathing stays suffocatingly short and slow for way too long. There's just no out, there's only a wait for some change that will give you back a first bit of motor control.

[link redacted]

Keeping my feet flat on the ground, continually checking my shoulder tension, adjusting my ergo so that I don't continually feel an urge to lean forward, and having a chair with fantastic lumbar support have made a huge difference.

I prefer to listen to a soft-spoken guide (guided meditation) when doing this technique. Plenty of resources online for that.

Body scan: Lying still in bed, you are relaxed, right? Not so much, actually. Start mentally checking individual body parts and you'll find a bunch of muscles tensed up for no reason at all. Let each one go loose one by one. Then check again and you'll find they can still go looser. It can take several passes to get to the point where your muscles are actually hanging loose.

Meditation: Yep. We're going to do the "Clear your mind and don't think about anything" routine. Never works, right? That's OK. The point is not to succeed in thinking about nothing. All you need to do is notice you're thinking about stuff and go back to thinking about nothing. Over and over. You don't need to "win". Just fail and restart again and again and again. You can repeatedly fail, can't you? ;) As long as you keep restarting, you're good.

But for me, those techniques never worked and I had to adapt my workflow to be really "done" in the evening so I can get my mind away from code.

Last year my girlfriend discovered a random tiktok, where lots of ADHD folks responded to. Apparently there's ongoing research related to lack of melatonin and therefore the heart and the whole body cannot get really into a resting state.

The ironic thing is that I always thought that drinking a chocolate milk in the evening helped me in the past, and most of my meditation techniques from the martial arts world focussed on pulse control. But, as I got older I got lactose intolerant...and also skipped my evening chocolate milk (obviously).

Now I'm taking 1mg of melatonin in the evening and I've never fallen asleep so easily. I was kinda mind blown when I discovered it, because I've long accepted that nobody can help me and this is just how my "condition" is like.

Note this is not medical advice, but my personal experience. Please check with your doctor whether it's okay to take melatonin safely (and whether your heart is okay, too).

As an alternative to body scanning, I've found placing attention on 2 separates points in the body, i.e., palm of hand and chest will quiet the thinking mind. This is particular helpful if there is a feeling I want to avoid since the thinking mind is trying to avoid feeling unpleasant feelings (the mind likes to control and regulate things). Yet by placing attention on those 2 points the the mind will alternate between those 2 sensations instead. It may be a bit of a balancing act to do and if that's the case body scan may be easier to do.

I found guided meditation apps like (headspace in particular) nice to get the setup.

My issue is more of an 'unquiet and overactive mind' as well as this irrational (but very unshakable) sense that there simply aren't enough hours in the day to accomplish my goals, and that sleeping would be admitting failure in some regard.

- lay still - no really, lay still - I'm not kidding. Lay still. - don't move at all - obviously don't make noises and don't open your eyes

I discovered this when trying to make my daughter go to sleep. Disciple and the silent-closed eyes-still rule is sufficient.

https://youtu.be/7H0FKzeuVVs

This is just a common side effect while people are learning the meditation - I guess it is so common this kind of body scanning is now recommended as a sleep aid.

focus on your body, focus on your breath, try not to "pay attention" to anything.

it totally helped me, and i can now fall asleep much easier than before.

> Try not to "pay attention" to anything

True, but that is a self-fulfilling definition. For most people, that advice will work. For the minority for whom it does not work, they have chronic insomnia. It does not invalidate the advice, it just means that some people are out of the norm and need something else.

That being said, I agree with you. We all would be healthier if we'd just sleep when tired, eat when hungry. But that isn't how our society rolls.

My trick is to listen (not watch) to old television shows ...all night. I selected a few hundred hours of old television that'd I'd seen many times before, got a pair of very comfortable ear buds to sleep with, and I just listen to the old TV shows for 8 hours straight. It works amazingly.

Now I sleep through the night, every night, despite having even worse life problems than when I started. One interesting side effect is that I don't dream the same at all. If I dream at all - it's actually about the show that I'm listening to. It doesn't seem to have any negative impact though.

And that adult may not even realize it, because that worry is usually covered by layers of coping. “I’m fine” is adults worst enemy.

My trick is to listen (not watch) to old television shows ...all night

Before using a technique described in itt’s root comment, I also used for-sleep hour+ long asmr videos. Cannot compare their effectiveness because I don’t have a tv.

If I dream at all - it's actually about the show that I'm listening to. It doesn't seem to have any negative impact though

Make sure they don’t broadcast red propaganda in the middle of the night! /jk

Being a very anxious person in nature, I will add there is something that positively helps anxiety in repetition of something known.

I can't put my finger on it but, I always feel aliviated when a new episode starts after the previous one. It's one of the things that has helped me most during hard times, and gave me back being able to fall sleep at night.

For the general issue of worries keep me up at night, I have found that after a few years of meditation, this has almost stopped being issue for me. Maybe if there is some big issue I will wake up one morning early and not be able to stop the thoughts from waking me, so then I bring my problem solving techniques to it and resume sleeping well. Granted some types of stress, financial, child well being, relationship, are more destabilizing and force a higher level of practice than others (like a recent car accident where no one was hurt but my pride and my car and maybe my trust of highway 87). But three slow deep breaths, with all my attention I can summon, note the beginning of the pause and plan reflex, and then nicely numbered breaths, connected to many hours of sitting meditation and those basically chill experiences, and I can let sleepiness do its thing without fuss.

It has absolutely changed the way I sleep (combined with not having caffeine with dinner or later). It has to be TV shows that I've either seen before or don't really care about what happens. Only difference is I use the sleep timer and just turn the TV back on if I have trouble falling back asleep.

But I am with you, old tv shows where I already know the ending are distracting enough not to think about tomorrow, but since I've seen them already I don't stay awake to find out what happens

...but it also cannot be the same content every night, so I have a few hundred hours of several old shows hosted on my Plex server that I play each night.

It's novel enough that it keeps my brain occupied, but not so new that I care about missing anything.

It's a nice sweet spot.

My next step is selecting very specific episodes that I think have good stories that I actually want to reinforce. I find I really internalize certain scenes if I happen to be in the correct part of my sleep cycle while it's playing.

Of the latter, I prefer the shows I’ve been listening to for over a decade.

The latest gen don't work as well (for sleep) as their shape is slightly different (more "bulbous" perhaps) and are much more uncomfortable to fall asleep with in my opinion.

As to how wise it is to sleep with tiny bluetooth transmitters inside your skull... that's a different question.

Given that situation or any other possible emergency that may occur in the middle of the night, sleeping with earbuds playing old TV shows seems like a very bad idea...

Be careful.

Last year, at the beginning of the pandemic, our whole family basically went with no alarms or bedtimes. We slept when we were tired, we ate when we were hungry.

We all basically ended up going to bed between 2-4am (including the 3 and 5 year old) and waking around 11am. Sometimes we would take naps too.

The only reason we got away with that of course was because the pandemic had removed all requirements to interact with society. We literally had no where to go and no one to meet with (all my work meetings start after 1pm).

It was amazing and glorious.

Subjectively, i feel like this is really hard to actually get right in practice.

During the pandemic i had decided to only go to sleep when i actually felt tired. Unfortunately, usually that ended up being at around 2 AM, possibly because using a computer in the evenings/nights was pretty bad for me being able to "listen" to the needs of my body. I noticed that i felt much worse when waking up, than i did when i was following a set schedule. Even with solutions like Redshift/f.lux, people probably still shouldn't use computers and possibly not partake in other activities in the late hours of the night, should they want to better gauge when they are actually tired and when it's time to sleep.

In regards to food and nutrition, it was also a similar situation. For a while, i decided to eat as much as i wanted when i felt hungry. Even though i didn't ever order take out, didn't drink things like Cola/Pepsi, kept myself hydrated to the best of my abilities, i still probably ate too much and that resulted in me gaining about 10-20 kg of weight in total, over a number of months (towards the upper end of a healthy BMI, bordering being overweight). It could have been worse, but if you want to consume food freely, it should probably be mostly veggies or nature products, as opposed to many of the comfort foods.

Now i'm mostly back to a set sleep schedule, limiting what i eat so that i feel a little bit hungry when i go to sleep and also doing cardio exercise every day regardless of how i feel when doing it (which has consistently been pretty horrible so far) and overall my wellbeing has gradually increased.

tl;dr - Understanding the needs of your body can be hard. I certainly cannot trust mine in that regard.

But understanding the causes helps. There's a bunch of things I simply don't do:

1) late night working. I can't get any sleep after that. My brain being hyperactive before bed time kills my productivity the next day. So it's a net loss. I'd rather wake up early than work late.

2) caffeine takes a long time to leave your body. I don't drink coffee after noon. Or tea. Or anything containing it. I also limit my intake to max 2-3 cups per day. I avoid the stuff entirely on weekends and try to not get too dependent on it. A nice side effect is that when I do drink coffee, it really works.

3) I don't work on the weekend. I need my weekends to reset my brain. Sleep is part of that. Not thinking about work for 2 days a week is part of that. Context switches are great for getting work out of your short term memory. I don't want to feel guilty about not working; so it's a rule I very break. It can wait and if it can't, it will have to anyway.

4) I don't set alarm clocks. I stopped doing this years ago and I wake up when I need to. It's uncanny; the rare times I do set an alarm clock because I need to be up extremely early, I actually wake up just before it goes off. Mostly on normal days I wake up around the time I would have set my alarm anyway; or slightly before that. In the rare case I don't, I apparently needed some extra sleep and its fine. Finishing your natural sleep cycle is more important than getting out of bed 20 minutes too early. I never miss meetings or get late to work (well working from home like everyone these days).

In the 1990's medicinal herbs became popular and easy to get, including sleep aids. I discovered rather by accident that if I took melatonin or valerian right before going to bed, then popped a caffeine pill immediately upon waking up, I felt normal and productive during the day, even with only sixish hours of sleep. I started doing that routinely during the work week. Changed my life.

My sleep rhythms finally adjusted after about ten years of doing this, so I can now go to bed at 11pm-12 and wake up like a normal person in the morning without the aid of the herbs or the caffeine.

The other thing that seems to have helped me has been allowing natural light into my bedroom. I used to black out my windows and sleep in, then wake up disoriented since my bedroom was pitch black. Now, the sunrise wakes me up on the morning and I'm guessing that helps with circadian rhythm.

It's still not perfect. If I have the slightest bit of anxiety I'll wake up in the middle of the night, and in general if I wake up at night I have trouble falling asleep again. But that's a far cry from my college insomnia.

Of course I will have trouble if I have too much coffee.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake...

For me actually following sleep experts advice helped. Particularly, CBT-I. The idea is very simple. Two important sleep factors are what your brain is used to and how tired you are. If your brain is used to wake up in the middle of the night, you can possibly change it by making yourself very tired. You start by picking a consistent sleep window that works for you. Let's assume you get 7 hours of sleep but need to spend 9 hours in bed for that. You pick a 7 hours window (e.g., 11p - 6am) and you put an alarm clock and get up regardless if you're tired or not. In the beginning you're going to wake up in the middle of the night and be very tired in the morning, but ideally after some time you'll be tired enough and sleep through the night. This sleep restriction practice can be dangerous of course, and it's not recommended unless you can get at least 5 hours of sleep each night.

Over time you can adjust your sleep window as needed. The key is to stick to your sleep routine, following all sleep hygiene tips, and maybe most importantly waking up every day at the same time even if you went to bed later than your usual bed time. That's why I still use an alarm clock even though I don't need to and some research suggest it's better to wake up naturally. So far it's been working for me, might not work for others.

Another tip I have is meditation. Other already mentioned they listen to stuff like audio books etc. When I cannot fall a sleep I would usually listen to some sleep meditation with a sleep eye mask. It works better for me than what most sleep experts recommend - leaving bed and reading book or something like that.

I did this for years. Felt great for a while, then starting having noticeable impacts on my ability to focus, my mood, and my physical health.

The same old advice took close to 6 months to really start helping me. It was an absolute grind to stick to a wake + bedtime routine. The discipline it takes is absolutely insane (weekends were the hardest). I stopped and started over and over and over again, but eventually stuck to it.

Low/medium dose ambien once or twice a week was the the thing that really got me into the habit/routine. Medication is not a long term fix (especially this stuff), but this was enough to get me through the fitful nights for a few months--it stopped me from getting out bed and breaking the routine.

Anecdote, so as usual, ymmv.

Excerpt from the linked article:

  Don’t force yourself into a consistent bedtime. A regular bedtime is great if you’re sleeping well. But if you can’t fall asleep, trying to force it will only make things worse.

I guess I have to praise the sun more often.

I did all the lifestyle changes. Then I got diagnosed. The drugs work. Nothing else besides low carb eating did before that.

Two weeks after being put on Lipitor I began to suffer chronic insomnia for the first time in my life: I had good sleep hygiene (almost perfect), consistent exercise, and minimal caffeine (only in the morning, only before 9am).

The problem lay in my body chemistry: insomnia was not an uncommon side effect of Lipitor. The fix? My doctor swapped out Lipitor for a different statin.

I'd say sleep hygiene is necessary but not sufficient. I'm guessing you are aware of the reddit forums for N24/DSPS,that are also pretty intolerant of sleep hygiene talk. But the part about getting up after 30 minutes or so to start over is definitely very helpful for me.

For me, meditation also helps a lot, which I think suggests my main problem is anxiety/stress.

Most likely there are antagonists at play delaying your onset. Often either sleeping in late / excess time in bed, or anxiety, or blue light emitting electronics before bed.

I also have had a lot of success with podcasts to fall asleep.

Before this I’d often be awake until 1-3 am. It was terrible.

It sucks it didn’t work for you, but am chiming in to say for others that if you really try sleep hygiene and tinker with it, it may well work.

We have an informal policy of not scheduling meetings before 11 AM, so even when I don't get to sleep until 3 AM (which is common), I can still get ~8 hours of sleep.

It is scientifically recognized that people have different circadian rhythms (thus sleep cycles).

And here’s some research about teenage delayed circadian rhythm: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2820578/

You know, sometimes people are not snowflakes that require bullying or discipline to do things “the right way”.

Btw, do you have any references for your claim that most sedentary people will become night owls if they don’t pay attention? Or is it just your own personal perspective?

There are people that suffer from this self afflicted syndrome and it's not easy to change your lifestyle into a healthy one. Hiding behind words like night owl doesn't help you if you want to change yourself however.

And if you don't want to change yourself, then just admit to yourself that this is the lifestyle you want to have.

There is nothing inherently wrong with wanting to stay up late/sleep in. It is however a decision you make and not a biological necessity.

Not sure why you are attacking me, and I never said I was a night owl or that I wanted to change myself.

Anyway, if you consider genetic predispositions or adolescence to be “self afflicted syndromes”, then either there’s a language barrier or you just will never accept something that it’s not your own opinion, even if there’s scientific research showing you otherwise (maybe you didn’t read it? If so, then I suggest you do).

Obesity exists as well and is usually caused by the lifestyle of the afflicted. The same applies here.

I'm sorry for my phrasing however, there is a language barrier as you've correctly pointed out and I was using the "you" as a generic term for people identify with that.

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27568340/

You do realize that these are different things I hope?

If not, here is a hint: a "night owl" has no trouble falling asleep when it's "their time" to sleep.

A person suffering from insomnia still struggles to fall asleep even if it's 2am.

My body/brain simply will not allow me to sleep longer than 6.5 hours and that is often really pushing it.

I have absolutely no signs of sleep deprivation. No daytime sleepiness. Every article loves to tell me how horrible it is for me, but there are no symptoms and nothing more I can do.

Sleep duration is just a single metric; apnea, REM+NREM3 duration etc. all matter. You may be getting as much REM+NREM3 in 6.5 as someone gets in 8... and if you don't have apnea, you might get WAY more actual sleep than most people.

I went through a period where I believed my body would only accommodate a certain amount of sleep. Once I stopped caring about sleep duration... that duration slowly increased to eventually revert to 'normal'.

The key is to just _stop_caring_ about it. Do everything right, and let your body/mind handle the rest. It doesn't happen overnight.

I agree with this. Worrying about the quality of my sleep caused me more sleep problems than it solved. I quit tracking my sleep, I go to bed when I'm tired and get out of bed when I wake up. E.g. I don't try to keep sleeping just because it's 4AM. My sleep quality has steadily improved as a result. Just roll with it.

I have however found that being a bit short on sleep one night and making it up another works perfectly fine if your weekly average comes out ok. Another thing all the sleep articles claims isn’t possible.

Notwithstanding everything else you said, you don't know that for a fact. Some unlikely interventions can have a massive impact. Even if you're content with your sleep it doesn't mean it can't be improved.

Uh what's the next adjective after "extreme"?

This reminds me of companies with so-called "flex time" where you have the option to come in as late as 9 if you want to.

Circadian rhythm is genetically determined and all long term studies of delayed sleep phase show it's essentially impossible to change. However it's one of those things that's a disorder only because it goes against what our societies expect.

I used to think I had insomnia for years, because I would try to sleep at "normal" times and struggled. When a sleep doctor suggested I change my sleep patterns to match my genetics, my perceived insomnia immediately disappeared. Now I just have to deal having with a sleep pattern that everyone else identifies as belonging to disaffected teenagers.

FWIW, a recent study found a physical cause for this - something about a genetic mutation that causes our sleep-signaling hormones to be created without the tails they usually have to navigate to the correct spots in the brain. So once again, the people claiming "It's just willpower" are proven wrong. Funny how the more we learn about the brain, the more we realize that willpower as a concept fully within our control doesn't necessarily exist.

I know someone who is currently going through the diagnosing phase, could you please link that study? Their GP mentioned that you could take medication to "work" through it in order to match societies "normal" times.

I don't know what a hormone "tail" means but if they have trouble navigating to the correct spots in the brain, how does it eventually find the correct spot? That reads to me like the hormone won't be able to navigate to the correct spot or it'll have trouble every time but from what I read those with DSPD do have a typical, consistent sleep time, it's just delayed (relative to the majority of people)

Now it's harder to stay up on weekends but ehhhh

1- Amphetamines are mostly eliminated unchanged in urine, methylphenidate needs to be processed be the liver before excretion so this anecdote isn't relevant to Ritalin and Concerta

2- IPA style because hop is a diuretic into itself and 0%ABV because it doesn't have the problem associated with daily alcohol consumption.

Yeah, seriously. What's my 6 AM to 2 PM schedule? Extremer?

Exxxtreme

Stumble in at 10am, leave work at 6pm, most days.

In my experience, the main way it helps is by preparing me for other disturbances (sounds). I think that we're processing sound in a relative way, so if you have silence and all of a sudden there's noise, it will demand attention. By having something in background, I reduce the difference between the current level and the distraction.

The trick is to find the sweet spot. Too loud and it'll be distracting, and in fact even too low is distracting for me, because I attempt to focus on it too much.

Also, nature sounds do seem to have a calming effect, regardless.

[0]: https://mynoise.net

Now I use bluetooth earbuds and put on D&D podcasts, and I'm out in 15 minutes. If I happen to wake in the middle of the night, the podcasts put me to sleep again quickly. My biggest issue now is just not being able to remember where I fell asleep the night before.

I do find that I get a lot out of the reading despite having to back track constantly. It’s just interesting enough for me to open it up, and just dry enough to put me to sleep.

Last night was Seneca. He went on and on and on with tangents. The information was generally good, but it’s like you’re being sucked into a black hole of some dude ranting in the most eloquent yet benign ways.

I’ve been to the doctor and all she did was give me benzodiazepines which I don’t want to try. Has anyone out there ever experienced something like this? I feel so thoroughly broken after not sleeping for nearly a month.

About six months ago I herniated a disc pretty severely in my lower back. Initially totally messed up my sleep with real pain…then the pain turned to annoyance and just caused me to wake up frequently and have a tough time ignoring and going to bed. And eventually the pain went away all together…but what was left was a major sleep problem. Couldn’t go to sleep, couldn’t stay asleep. And I have been a perfect sleep through the night sleeper my whole life. Was super rough.

Benzos didn’t really help. But what did was sleep restriction. I must have totally obliterated my circadian rather over months of dealing with the back pain.

So I set hard 6 hour sleep time every night. In bed at 1:30am. Out of bed 7am. Even if you don’t sleep a wink. Up same time. Then immediately go outside and stand in the bright sun. Spend zero time in the bedroom other than to go to bed. Rinse repeat. First couple days were brutal…but then it started to come back. I was tired again at night. My body was begging to sleep. And getting up in the morning got hard. And after two weeks…added 15 min. Earlier bed time. Two more weeks…15 more minutes. Two months later and im totally back to normal.

I recommend trying high-dose magnesium from magnesium chloride, it's easy to dissolve some (up to 15 grams at once) in some water and drink.

Mg orotate doesn't upset my tummy. Determined thru trial & error. I tried reading about the differences, but failed to understand.

Other forms bound to various amino acids like magnesium glycinate are good too, but you can also supplement those amino acids separately.

Magnesium chloride is water soluble so it's great to dissolve in your drinking water and drink throughout the day.

I think we should be more careful about saying this. I've heard both professors and doctors say this, and then I've personally read the (reputable, mainstream) research papers showing that double digit percentages of people have various vitamin deficiencies.

I'll just Google real quick to see if I can find some examples of common vitamin deficiencies, but these are obviously just web articles, not research papers...

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Magnesium-HealthProfession...

"Dietary surveys of people in the United States consistently show that many people consume less than recommended amounts of magnesium"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10357726/

This one recommends 120mg of vitamin C, but I've seen another that recommends 200mg, and I suspect a lot of software engineers are not eating enough fruit on a daily basis to meet the recommended level.

Also, what's the harm in taking a multivitamin? At a cost of under $1/day, if you don't need the vitamins, it's a small cost (< 1% of Bay Area rent), and if you do need them it may have an impact on your health.

I agree that a multivitamin doesn't usually include enough magnesium or vitamin D, but that's an argument for adding additional supplements, not to stop taking multivitamins.

Unless we are talking about some high quality stuff like athletic greens.

To know your Vitamin D shortage, take a look here: https://vitamind3-cholecalciferol.com/vitamin-d-deficiency-t...

Anecdotal: Around the time that I started my day job, I experienced light depressions during winters. For me it was just a winter-dip. I didn't think much of it but my then girlfriend (now wife) recognised that we got into fights much more often than during summers. She studied something along the lines of "Biology, Food and Health", and she thought I'd have a minor Vitamin D deficiency. I've started taking 75mg every day and after about 3 weeks I started seeing more vividly. I remember very well that when I walked out of the office during winter, even though it was near dark, I saw all colors much more bright and it was like a sort of pressure on my sight was gone.

Now, when I'm not in the sun during the day for at least 30-60 minutes (for maintenance in the garden, or working for clients during WFH in the garden), I take on avg 50mg (2000IU) every day and I've never had a dip anymore.

"Elemental Magnesium (Oxide, bisglycinate, glycerophosphate, malate, aspartate)"

Unclear what ratio of each of the above.

Yes but before reaching for benzos maybe try something milder like zopiclone?

GPs & sleep medicine physicians are worthless for insomnia issues. You need to see a psychiatrist. Sleep issues are a huge component to mental health treatment, so they have much better insights. And since you've correctly identified that anxiety is related to sleep loss, psychiatric help is doubly useful.

Talk to a psychiatrist about low dose trazodone, mirtazapine or seroquel. They have relatively good safety profiles and are not habit forming like benzodiazepines. They also act like a safety blanket; I know that if I'm having trouble sleeping they will knock me out and right the ship. That is super helpful at releasing the anxiety around 'I can't sleep'.

And of course, if you have other stressful things in your life, you need to focus on working them out. Stress doesn't just 'release itself' because we are going to bed. Having a high base level of stress throughout the day makes sleep difficult for _everyone_.

Now I can fall asleep in 10-15 minutes by focusing that mental energy into imagining a favorite place and once the image is established in my mind I let go of control. Then the image kind of comes alive on its own - I like to imagine a clearing in a forest so all kind of creatures appear randomly. I think all this random auto-generated sensory input overrides the real one allowing me to fall asleep.

Of course, it helps if there are no sudden changes in your real environment (loud sounds, sharp changes in lighting, etc.)

It sounds crazy, but it works for me.

Try the benzos or a mild andidepressent (discuss with your doctor of course). Do not take more than the prescribed dose (maybe even start with half of it). The important thing is to use it along with a solid bedtime routine. Same time, lights out, no TV, etc. I had a bad experience with it when trying to use it as a replacement for a bedtime routine, but its been wonderful in addition to a routine when I needed the help.

But I did want to offer a ray of hope. After trying everything under the sun for months (including benzos), someone told me about CBTI (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia). Rather than go into all the details, just Google it. Its really the only proven successful (non-drug) way of dealing with insomnia (notice I did not say 'cure').

My only advice for those looking into CBTI is DO NOT TRY TO DO IT ON YOUR OWN. Its a very rigorous program that should be supervised by a doctor who specializes in CBTI. If you try it on your own, you are likely to fail - it can be a challenging program to follow through on.

Be careful about the benzos. They are extremely habit forming (again Google it) and can be difficult to stop.

One key point that my CBTI doctor talked about. Sleep is generally a combination of 2 factors. Your natural daily rhythm (day = awake; night = sleep) and how long its been since you last slept (ie. nap at 6PM is bad idea). If either one of these gets out of whack, sleep will be difficult. CBTI helps you align these two factors.

Lastly, in my case, I believe the insomnia was a symptom of a depression that I found myself in. Treating the depression along with CBTI was (literally) a lifesaver for me.

For me atleast it started like 5-6 months ago with VIVID dreams and then around 2-3 months ago the lack of sleep started. It started with an anxiety attack about a health scare.

Went to the doc, got some anti anxiety meds, got some tests done. Nothing looks wrong according to the doc. The meds made me drowsy constantly but did it for 2 weeks. Slight improvement. And now it feels like I am back to square 1

Bad running form (over striding, low cadence), weak core and hips, weak glutes, pelvic tilt, bad desk setup, one body part overcompensating for another, and so on all lead to typical running injuries.

From https://lorienpsych.com/2021/01/02/insomnia/ which also has other advice

[1] https://sci-hub.st/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...

A jog or sprints most mornings, followed by meditation, and a low dose of lexapro (5-10mg). At night a melatonin and mindful breathing usually gets me to sleep within 20 minutes, instead of hours.

Come to find out that the reason was apnea. I'd drift to sleep, have an apnea event and wake back up. I didn't feel like I was suffocating, but more that I just couldn't sleep. After 5 months on a CPAP I'm finally starting to feel like my old self.

[1]https://med.stanford.edu/sleepdivision.html

I've listened to the episodes of the same production for almost 3 years now; The Ricky Gervais show / podcast. Hilarious and lighthearted, always takes my mind off of anything else.

Apps that can slowly fade out the sound are great. The Audible app fades out very quickly, but even that quick fade is enough not to wake me if I am already asleep.

(If I am awake, though, I find that it disturbs my "almost asleep" vib, so I wish they had an option to fade out over x minutes.)

For me it was more of a realization it was my diet. I changed my diet to remove some particular types of foods and now I sleep good. If I eat those foods I sleep like crap. Pop a tums and I am good (it is the upset stomach waking me randomly, so the bad sleep). Everyone has different reasons why. But the top ones are typically stress, injury, or food are a good place to start.

[shortened backstory]

- Always had normal sleep, even in stressfull times - 2 years ago, over the span of a few days my sleep went away: from 5 to 3 to 0 hrs. I then was awake for 2 days. And after that only slept max 3 hours for ages (nearly a year). - I couldn’t take naps - I lost all my energy (could hardly walk for 15), thinking etc - had to chase after specialists to check things, and correct them on their assumptions... which was emotionally exhaustive. - It led to them seeing symptoms of an endless list of possible causes, but they never found a culprit. - One hypothesis was that I was struggling with the results of a virus, and basically was left with all kinds of damage. - I was constantly asked about / advised on bed / food / daily routines, even though mine were identical to their advice (perfect) going into this, and I had been stress free.

[ on improvement ]

+ It’s hard to say if it helped me improve my sleep, since I continued to struggle, but a very strict (though fairly standard) bed routine did make me feel more in control: * same time to bed every day, pre-bed routine of stretching the body, cooling my hands and feet, while in bed stretching the face muscles and ‘yawning’ * no exciting media or social meeting / discussions in the evening (or close to bed time) * using an app to play the same comforting / funny podcast every night, and having it fade out after a set time (the Ricky Gervais show / pilkboys yt channel) * For a while I developed my own meditation routine in bed

+ asked people to not ask about my sleep, just how I’m doing + be very open, forward, non apologetic about your condition + there might have been an influence of some gut problems I had, which were eventually treated by antibiotics + I’ve been prescribed temazepam and diazepam to at least calm my body down, and it made me feel closer to sinking into sleep – but never really went all the way. I got semi addicted to them, and hated the desperation I had to at least have some control over my body. After I got off them, and my twitches had declined, I only used temazepam if im on my way to a second sleepless night in a row. So I don’t reach for them on th occasional setback, but I’m glad they are there if it escalates.

+ I focus on daily activities, and excused myself from existential worries + I’m now up to 5 / 6 hours on a night, not necessarily of quality, but I don’t feel terrible every day

What a hack. Have you tried melatonin?

No effect.

Sadly, I found that book made my sleep worse. (A quick Google will show I'm not alone).

Also there is a lot of debate around the quality of the research underpinning the book, this is the most prominent article: https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/

Also I really do not love his subsequent rebranding as "The Sleep Diplomat" https://www.sleepdiplomat.com/

I'm glad if it made your life better, but I cannot recommend it, and won't see it recommended without comment.

Once I stopped worrying about whether I was having enough sleep every night, I got back to my previous, not ideal but better, sleep patterns.

Being a night person I just wish I could wake up late rather than having to be up early for work but it's better to sleep well for 5-6h than really badly for 3-4h.

And when I can't fall asleep I just get up and do something out of bed (for 15mins until I get bored).

https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-...

The link above has a section on the possible negative effects.

So yes, just reading it had a negative impact. I'm over it now. Just don't recommend it.

It did work, for over a decade, for me. I also didn't want to take it though, so I seldom took it more than four times in a month, and often went a few months without any.

In my case, bouts of this kind of insomnia (tired, feel like I might be able to sleep but just can't) happen seemingly at random, every few months, and not connected to any identifiable stressor. (I feel like it might be more likely to experience another insomnia episode when work is too hectic or I have some kind of stressful situation going on, but it definitely also happens when everything is fine). They last days or weeks.

I'd never been able to fall asleep easily (was a night person from high school onward) but I was able to sleep in late once asleep. This changed about 12 years ago, in my early 30s, where I had the first episode of real insomnia. I couldn't sleep well for a week, laying in bed from 23:00 to 3:00, 4:00, finally 7:00 AM.

I visited over 10 sleep specialists and doctors (this was in Tokyo, Japan). They gave various conflicting advice, all of which I tried, but nothing worked for me but the drugs. (I tried a bunch of different drugs, but ultimately zolpidem was the one that, of those that pretty much guaranteed I would be able to sleep, had the fewest noticeable side effects.

Recently my doctor instead prescribed me etizolam, which is a thienodiazepine (but basically, a benzodiazepine), and this also works. I prefer this one because, for me at least, zolpidem causes a kind of drunk/high/bad-judgement "I'm on drugs" feeling and has scary stories about people doing stuff they don't remember later.

Etizolam (1mg for me) relieves the insomnia without the druggie feeling. (It does make you feel good though, and I suspect there is a high risk of dependency if you take it every day.)

After taking a keen interest in this topic over many years (just for the obvious, selfish reasons) I think there are probably many reasons this can occur, and YMMV. But I have never gotten any of the non-drug "remedies" to work.

Even months/years of a heavy exercise regimen, like barbell weight-lifting — which definitely helps me sleep longer and better in general — doesn't seem to have any effect on these episodic bouts of insomnia.

From that standpoint, the drugs have helped me manage it. I never have a full week of bad sleep any more, and eventually each episode of insomnia goes away on its own.

Though, I would attribute this to my mom being a major nightowl and me being one as well. 2nd and 3rd shifts have been the highlight of my life, but those roles are so hard to come by that I just accept a WFH job where I skirt the system and work later while still handling the morning meetings as needed.

You probably have a different thing than this, but it's pretty easy to have checked. Totally worth it for me.

All the usual advice I‘ve tried, I can kill my three alarm clocks, drink two coffees, take a brutal cold shower in my daylight bright LED lit bathroom and then go back to sleep within seconds like nothing happened.

What "cured" me was having kids. I now have no problem falling asleep at 10 PM. I would guess it's due to pretty brutal sleep deprivation (our first took a very long time to get through the night). I'm guessing this pretty much smashed my pre-existing circadian rhythm.

Notably usually absent or poorly followed: - waking up early, at the exact same time, every day. - as SOON as you get up, you need to eat a heavy breakfast of fats and protiens with as few carbs as possible. Some people think they are special snowflakes who "have never been able to eat in the morning", you need to practice it and get in the habit then you will be able to. - ACTUAL psychological separation of bed, and screen areas. - not sleeping in the same bed as someone else to those it applies to - keeping your room around 20 degrees, if you cant decide, colder is the preference for sleep as we did not evolve with masses of blankets and insulation. - understanding and handling rumination, more complex but if you handle tasks in a way that leaves you with unresolved threads all the time, you will ponder on them endlessly. This must be handled sensibly.

Cannot stress enough how I second that. A nervous person (who you, a reader, completely are, despite thinking you’re normal) is at risk of self-feeding the problem they have with something.

Also as a person who couldn’t find interest in life events anymore in general (not suicidal, just boring to death), CBT theme itself is like a fresh breath. Like as a geek you never knew what a computer is and just found out.

Therapy makes a difference thru acceptance and working with you as you are more than fixing. Part of that is getting a more realistic way of perceiving your self as you are, and part of that is finding the strengths in how you are. Also taking very good care of your precious life. Sleep when you are tired. Eat when you are hungry. Seek help when you could benefit from it. It you hate someone, don’t hang around. Etc etc.

Between the acceptance, self awareness, less shame about your actual self, and a life that meets your needs, therapy can transform your life, but not by transforming you. You are fine.

This was my concern as well, I asked about it on third or fourth session right after acute symptoms relaxed. I really didn’t want to change into someone else. The therapist laughed and said to not worry, because I lived more than 30 years along with my core beliefs and it would take an inhuman effort to move that mountain even slightly. All you do is getting familiar with yourself and being aware of tons of your automatic thoughts and what they result in, if you allow them to act without your noticing. Speaking in software terms, we are legacy monsters with no source code or self-testing, and CBT is basically a set of (pretty effective) blackbox testing methods with a goal to (a) create additional routines to work around detected issues and (b) accept that this is you and it’s normal/okay/justthat.

If you can do that, congratulations, you don't have insomnia.

> need to eat a heavy breakfast (…) Some people think they are special snowflakes who "have never been able to eat in the morning"

If I don't wait one or two hours after waking up before eating I'll puke, or at best have some severe nausea for hours, no thanks.

I'm insomniac and it drove me quite close to death, try getting a total of 6h of sleep in a week, 48h without rest, or staying still and conscious for 8h. Sleep deprivation is torture and everyone has their idea of how badly people manage their lives, how insomnia isn't a thing, and how they should just "go to bed", "quit screens", or "eat proper". You think we have not tried everything and anything?

Melatonin saved me, not condescending uninformed counsel. When I started taking melatonin I discovered what feeling sleepy was like. I only knew exhaustion until then, and it was not always enough. I've been able to sleep for the past two years and it still feels like a luxury.

There's no recognition that there is variation between people and maybe we should make things easier for a diverse set of needs rather than forcing people to do a bunch of labor to comply with someone else's lifestyle.

"But I'm having trouble sleeping and I'm bored, can't I just watch a couple episodes of something?" they'd say. NO, we'd say. "Well how about I work on some homework on my computer?" NO. "Alright, well I guess I'll text my friends" NO. "But..." NO.

And if sleep across the population of kids had indeed been getting worse over that time period, I'd bet that'd fix it for most of them.

We have trouble enforcing rules like that on ourselves, though, and maybe even trouble recognizing what's surely suspect #1 in any kind of declining sleep quality epidemic.

(as for any "tricks" we're all sharing, the ones I've had success with are: a loud and powerful fan for air circulation and noise-masking; keeping the thermostat for our bedrooms quite low at night, even in the Summer; heavy curtains; and a weighted blanket, which if nothing else is very good at keeping any sheets or other blankets under it in place all night—and yes, I'm terrible at sticking to the obvious solution above, just like everyone else, but damned if it doesn't work like a charm on my stupid "I think I might have an abnormal sleep cycle LOL yeah, must be that, not all the low-effort hyper-stimulative entertainment" ass)

Generalizing that everyone has terrible habits is ridiculous, it's the equivalent of telling someone who is suffering from depression they just need to exercise to feel better, or someone who is obese to just "eat less"

I think not being able to wake up early at the same time every day is actually a symptom of insomnia. If you've been up half the night and only fell asleep an hour or 2 ago, jumping out of bed when the alarm goes off is pretty hard actually.

Even if I eat 10 mg dexamphetamine and a Red Bull as soon as I wake up, I will sometimes fall back asleep. Some mornings I don't even get that far, and manage to sleep though half a dozen alarms.

TLDR: After trying everything, most of my insomnia was resolved thru surgery, done for unrelated reasons. So I encourage every one to keep looking, experimenting.

Here's my anecdata for what actually helps me sleep.

Most of my anxiety (insomnia) was due to pinched nerves in my spine. Resolved with surgery. This possibility was never considered, mentioned. None of my care providers quite believe me. Previously, I tried everything, eg meditation, therapy, drugs. None of it helped.

I no longer consume alcohol. Not a big deal for me.

I no longer consume caffeine. I'm told my genes (ADORA2A) makes me hypersensitive. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17329997/ I love coffee, so this change was super hard.

I wake with the sun. No curtains in my bedroom. It's awesome.

I go to bed around 7:30p. Usually asleep by 9:00p.

As a nudge, I have a 5:00a alarm play soft music. I allow myself to sleep in.

I got a very active dog. At 1yo, he required at least 8 mi/day (my steps, he does much more).

I still do much of the mindfulness, breathing, stretching, and PT exercises. I like it.

Like u/rapsey, I supplement with magnesium orotate. I have chronic cramping, clinching, spasms. (Think MS or ALS.) I found the other variants upset my tummy. I also take methocarbanol; one side effect is sleepiness.

I'm guessing you live fairly far south. It's dark for about 3 hours at night here right now, and in winter it's only bright for about 5-6 hours a day.

Facetectomy, etc. to treat cervical bone spurs.

    1. Relax the muscles in your face, including tongue, jaw and the muscles around the eyes
    2. Drop your shoulders as far down as they’ll go, followed by your upper and lower arm, one side at a time
    3. Breathe out, relaxing your chest followed by your legs, starting from the thighs and working down
    4. You should then spend 10 seconds trying to clear your mind before thinking about one of the three following images:

    - You’re lying in a canoe on a calm lake with nothing but a clear blue sky above you
    - You’re lying in a black velvet hammock in a pitch-black room
    - You say “don’t think, don’t think, don’t think” to yourself over and over for about 10 seconds.

[1]: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/fall-asleep-fast-sl...

These days I generally sleep soundly--the main difficulty is in getting to bed in time to get eight hours in before daylight.

There are 4 episodes(1.5h each) dedicated just to sleep. The whole podcast is great.

https://youtu.be/nm1TxQj9IsQ

In contrast, in a "low" EMF environment, I fall asleep almost instantly, sleep in one go, and wake up feeling amazing. It's literally night and day for me, no pun intended.

Just my 2c, but I'd recommend trying to turn off your wifi router and your phone at night, see if it makes any difference in your life. At best it will, at worst, you will just think I'm crazy and have "wasted" one night experimenting.

You're crazy enough that I will, personally, bet you any amount of money you like, up to a limit of US$500000, that in a blind test with and without any number of wifi routers, cell phones, or other computing equipment operating, you cannot discern the difference.

Email in profile.

https://ilya.sukhar.com/blog/an-algorithmic-solution-to-inso...

A problem that became worse for me over the years was "sleeping but still being tired". This manifested for me when I started falling asleep at my desk at work, or in the middle of a conversation while I sat down.

I did all the regular things, bed same time everyday, less/no caffeine, I would even workout when I got a "sleepy spell" figuring it was downtime?

I finally saw a neurologist, got a sleep study, turned out I had restless leg syndrome. Basically running marathons in my sleep! I take a pill, and things are vastly improved.

I have heard of medication, such as Dopamine agonists, but got concerned they might have other side effects.

May I ask what your Dr has prescribed to you>?

They prescribed me Mirapex, which is normally a drug for Parkinson's patients but it's in like a 1/5th dose. I take it a couple hours before bedtime!

Best of luck sorting it out.

There are many variables which determine how much rest we need, such as physical state, fighting off an infection, time of year, mental state, fatigue, stress, and so on.

I've commented here before on this, but I think by far the healthiest practice (and one I've had great results with) is to sleep "to fullness" as much as possible, to allow yourself to go to sleep whenever tired, and also to not stress about not falling asleep when you're "supposed to", instead finding something else to do until tiredness overtakes.

It takes my mind off of real life things, and since it's just audio there is no light involved. History is perfect because there aren't many conceptual hurdles to understanding the material that would require really intense focus. I start to drift off after 30 minutes to 1.5 hours very consistently. It's also easy to find new listening material since there's practically an infinite amount of it.

As a bonus, I've learned a lot about history this way.

My wife and daughter have also had success with it.

I also have had success with listening to audio books or podcasts, but don't like doing that if my wife is also trying to go to sleep. Despite that she can't really hear me over her Sleepbuds.

It’s a trick that keeps your mind from wondering, but isn’t stressful.

you underestimate me