Interesting, based on your comment Hezbollah did that from Lebanese territories for no reason.
"Lebanese armed group Hezbollah fired rockets into Israel in response to the United States-Israeli war on Iran. Israeli forces have also launched a ground invasion of southern Lebanon."
Last I checked Lebanon was a separate country. So Lebanon decided to join the war against the US and Israel and now the consequences of that are Israel's fault?
Wow-wow just stop that bs. Without Israel people in the region would be murdering each other just like they did in Syria, in the Iran-Iraq war, in Yemen, in Lebanon's civil war etc. Maybe if those countries stopped attacking Israel they wouldn't be in war Mr. warmonger.
EDIT: It's worth mentioning that an attack on another country is not a legal reason according to international law to attack a third country. The critics of Israel and the US are claiming those started an "illegal war" on Iran so by that same rationale Lebanon started an illegal war on Israel.
> Israel stopped violently expropriating Arab lands
This is objectively happening in the West Bank and Gaza.
> assaulting and raping Arabs without consequences.
This is also objectively happening. A group of IDF soldiers were filmed raping a man to death. Their punishment? Literally nothing. They are cheered by some.
You cannot possibly believe that these sorts of behaviors are helping calm things.
That's not true, he's alive and was released to Gaza in a hostage-for-prisoner exchange.
> Their punishment? Literally nothing.
It's probably hard to win a case without the victim to testify. The video is something, but far too low-quality to prove who did what beyond a reasonable doubt. Prosecutors can't ignore evidentiary standards and don't like to lose cases.
At least they were detained and investigated. Can you say the same of the individuals who paraded their rape victims around the streets of Gaza?
Apologies. I did conflate two instances of rape. There are so many, it's possible that I combined two - one where the victim had a ruptured bowel, lung damage, broken ribs, and a torn anus; and another that lead to a death.
That said, when Ben-Gvir says any action is justifiable, including rape, in defense of Israel and when the person who leaked the video gets arrested and when a poll by the Israeli Democracy Institute finds the majority of Israelis support not investigating claims of rape it's very difficult for me to be credulous towards the idea that these are just a couple bad apples.
Most Gazans don’t believe Hamas raped anyone. It’s disingenuous to claim they were celebrating rape. Can you please share any public, non-anonymous accounts from Oct 7th either rape victims or witnesses?
Conversely, Israeli politicians and protestors have explicitly agitate for the right to rape detainees.
I'm not sure what the point is of piling on different accusations. Only one has any evidence, but let's just imagine for the sake of argument that they're all true. Then Israel has at least several criminals, just like every other country on the planet.
Is the idea that it's okay to post misinformation about Israelis because Israelis are bad? If I can identify several Canadian criminals, then since we've established that Canadians are bad people, is it fine to post misinformation about other Canadians?
To reassert the lost context, here is the original claim and counter-claim:
>>> Maybe if Israel stopped violently expropriating Arab lands, and assaulting and raping Arabs without consequences. It’s really not that complicated.
>> This is nonsense and you know it.
It’s apparent from the copious evidence presented here (with which you do not engage) that the original claim was, in fact, not nonsense. A real counter-argument would show 1) that these events did not occur or 2) that there were consequences for the assailants.
> Then Israel has at least several criminals, just like every other country on the planet.
Irrelevant false balance on a literally global scale. May I use this example in the logic text I’ve been workshopping?
The nonsense is the application of impossible standards like "Israel should have zero criminals" or "Israel should have a successful conviction for every suspected crime, never mind evidentiary standards".
If someone wants to make a serious argument about a systematic problem in Israel, that requires data, not a few accusations. For example, at least 10 of 110 released hostages were reportedly sexually assaulted in Hamas captivity [1], and there were zero arrests for it.
If Gazan detainees in Israeli custody experienced SA at the same rate, that would be over a thousand cases of SA. The parent also broadened their search to include SA allegations against Israelis in the West Bank, so they would need to show ~300k cases just to argue equivalence.
If we were to accept all the parent's sources as reliable, that's 12 reported cases of SA. They're 0.004% of the way there.
> The nonsense is the application of impossible standards like "Israel should have zero criminals" or "Israel should have a successful conviction for every suspected crime, never mind evidentiary standards".
This is an aggressive misreading of OP. Many countries’ militaries are routinely criticized for the sexual assault perpetrated by their soldiers. When US soldiers do it in Okinawa, for example, they can and have been turned over to local authorities, and their actions are disavowed. [1] Criticism of this pattern of sexual assault in Okinawa is not a call for the military to uphold some “impossible standard.”
If you want to try again to generate a valid counter-argument to OP you need to research SA committed by IDF soldiers and demonstrate that it falls under either 1) or 2) above, or some other form of logical refutation. Presenting yet more data about Hamas is neither effective nor persuasive to that end.
The original claim was that terrorists might stop attacking Israel if it stopped "assaulting and raping Arabs without consequences". So which way are we to read it?
- Israel is being held to an impossible standard of zero crime, or a 100% conviction rate for suspected crimes.
- Or Israel is being accused of having a prolific, systematic problem, with no data to support the accusation.
> Israel is being accused of having a prolific, systematic problem,
This is indeed my assertion.
> no data to support the accusation.
Given that you video evidence of a rape along with the documented injuries of the survivor doesn’t meet your evidentiary standards, I doubt that anything would actually convince you, but it’s well documented that Israeli’s act with impunity against Palestinians in a number of contexts.
E.g.
“3% of the investigations (into settler violence) ended with a conviction”
So funny that you moved the discussion from Israel to Russia. But after checking your comments I see that Russia lives rent-free in your mind.
> Either Russian propaganda is leaking into US, or people are being so easy to manipulate it's becoming scary.
Manipulation, double standards and bias are very difficult to avoid and an average human with a job just have no time to verify everything, so they just consume and the more they consume the more they believe in it.
Yeah, pretty sad situation especially if you have some empathy for those who don't want to fight but got tricked by their governments. Imagine you're 18 again and you have your plans to study in University, but instead the government which should serve the people (ha) sends you to die for a piece of land and to keep their leader positions.
In the end those wars are just a power and influence games for the ruling class.
Sometimes I think if the world would be better if instead of ~200 counties we had only ~10? But how to unite counties? People can agree to unite, but no one from the ruling class will agree to lose the power. So we are back to the war theme, because the war is the easiest way to unite pieces of land, but how to unite people? No idea, but... but we can find a new common enemy!
Ukraine draft age limit is now 25. It was lowered from 27 in 2024. If you are young and heading to university, you’re safe (for now). Even if the age limit is lowered, it will likely apply to NEETs first.
> Imagine you're 18 again and you have your plans to study in University, but instead the government which should serve the people (ha) sends you to die for a piece of land and to keep their leader positions
Your simplistic narrative doesn't capture the reality of the situation, at all. The people of Ukraine weren't given a choice of whether to be at war or not, doubly so for people in the eastern part of the country. And it's not just about who is the "leader", but rather staring down a known pattern of atrocities and long-term economic oppression. So attributing the responsibility of who ruined those plans to "the government" is just fallacious.
Your pragmatic personal decision might still be to run, and I wouldn't be arguing against that. But extrapolating that personal decision out to a general condemnation of other reactions to being attacked is disingenuous and reeks of the demoralizing propaganda put out by Russia.
Ukraine is the topic of the thread, so you were implicitly talking about it.
For what it's worth, I would have agreed where you're coming from 10-15 years ago. But from a Western perspective it's very easy to forget that there is such a thing as a defensive war
For example, I'm having trouble coming up with the last defensive war the US mainland actually experienced where a loss would have resulted in a different government. It feels like it was so long ago that it makes the question moot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_International
You can read who funds this channel.
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